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	<title>Comments on: Why do we do things the way we do?</title>
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	<link>http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/07/21/why-do-we-do-things-the-way-we-do/</link>
	<description>Straight Talk for Serious Children's Ministers</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mom :)</title>
		<link>http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/07/21/why-do-we-do-things-the-way-we-do/comment-page-1/#comment-249</link>
		<dc:creator>Mom :)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>When we talked about this the other night, I knew the passage you were referring to, because Mom and I have had this same conversation many times - and it always ends with, "I'd rather not think about it".

However, I don't think I've ever read the passage in the ESV - and assuming that it is accurately translated, I do think that it sheds light on the topic.  To make it easy, I'll copy it here:

“Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head–it is the same as if her head were shaven…Does not nature teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?  For her hair is given to her for a covering.”

Notice the last sentence where it calls a woman's (long) hair her covering.  Is the implication then that a man should not have that 'covering', but a woman should?  Is long hair (or the absence of it) the only covering that we are talking about?  If so, I think this falls back in line with the general idea that Paul teaches the NT church - that a man should look like a man and a woman should look like a woman.  Now there's a whole rabbit trail that we could venture down, but in the interest of sensibility, we will stay away from!

I think I agree with Jeff (who had a really cool ending line, "that's the way I see it") in that the cap thing for guys is more about not wearing a cap indoors anywhere rather than being based on Scripture. Of course, that then begs the question - as society begins to accept caps indoors such as homes and malls, why do we still not accept them in the church?

Well, I know someone way smarter than me, and I'll see if we can get him to chime in the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When we talked about this the other night, I knew the passage you were referring to, because Mom and I have had this same conversation many times - and it always ends with, &#8220;I&#8217;d rather not think about it&#8221;.</p>
<p>However, I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve ever read the passage in the ESV - and assuming that it is accurately translated, I do think that it sheds light on the topic.  To make it easy, I&#8217;ll copy it here:</p>
<p>“Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head–it is the same as if her head were shaven…Does not nature teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?  For her hair is given to her for a covering.”</p>
<p>Notice the last sentence where it calls a woman&#8217;s (long) hair her covering.  Is the implication then that a man should not have that &#8216;covering&#8217;, but a woman should?  Is long hair (or the absence of it) the only covering that we are talking about?  If so, I think this falls back in line with the general idea that Paul teaches the NT church - that a man should look like a man and a woman should look like a woman.  Now there&#8217;s a whole rabbit trail that we could venture down, but in the interest of sensibility, we will stay away from!</p>
<p>I think I agree with Jeff (who had a really cool ending line, &#8220;that&#8217;s the way I see it&#8221;) in that the cap thing for guys is more about not wearing a cap indoors anywhere rather than being based on Scripture. Of course, that then begs the question - as society begins to accept caps indoors such as homes and malls, why do we still not accept them in the church?</p>
<p>Well, I know someone way smarter than me, and I&#8217;ll see if we can get him to chime in the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Gill</title>
		<link>http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/07/21/why-do-we-do-things-the-way-we-do/comment-page-1/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/07/21/why-do-we-do-things-the-way-we-do/#comment-247</guid>
		<description>I think this passage is very clearly Paul Speaking into his own culture, and the reason that we run into trouble trying to apply this and other passages like it (e.g. 1 Timothy 2:11-12) is that we try to do it within the framework of our own coulture(s) and it just doesn't fit.

"Does not nature teach you..."
Nature has taught a lot of different things to a lot of different cultures. If we were to treat this as a real question rather than a rhetorical one, we would come the the conclusion that nature teaches no such thing. It could, in fact, teach us the opposite if we were to take our lessons from lions, peacocks and birds of paradise.

Men have to take their hats off in church because our culture says it is polite for men not to wear hats in buildings.

It is more acceptable for men to have long hair than for women to have short because the people who are in charge now had long hair back in the 70s -- men and women. Those in power today tend not to come from segments of society in which women have/had short hair.

It's about culture, not about scriptural principles.

I do not think that all of scripture should be reinterpreted because culture has changed -- far from it! But there are certain passages in which it is pretty obvious that Paul is writing from his own ideas about practicing Christianity in Roman culture, not giving us God's commands. (Yes, I do still believe it is inspired by God. Go figure...)

Three examples:
The passage in questsion: Does not nature teach you...
The aforementioned passage in 1 Timothy: I do not allow a woman...
1 Corinthians 11:6: we have no other practice...

These seem to stand in stark contrast to his theology of equality in Galatians 3:28. I can see Paul on the one hand knowing what is true in Christ and on the other knowing that getting people into God's family is way more important than a cultural revolution of equality, so he didn't try to change culture any more than he had to.

I think that today we are fortunate to live in a culture that is closer in this respect at least to the ideal that Paul lays out in Galatians.

That's the way I see it. My apologies for my longwindedness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this passage is very clearly Paul Speaking into his own culture, and the reason that we run into trouble trying to apply this and other passages like it (e.g. 1 Timothy 2:11-12) is that we try to do it within the framework of our own coulture(s) and it just doesn&#8217;t fit.</p>
<p>&#8220;Does not nature teach you&#8230;&#8221;<br />
Nature has taught a lot of different things to a lot of different cultures. If we were to treat this as a real question rather than a rhetorical one, we would come the the conclusion that nature teaches no such thing. It could, in fact, teach us the opposite if we were to take our lessons from lions, peacocks and birds of paradise.</p>
<p>Men have to take their hats off in church because our culture says it is polite for men not to wear hats in buildings.</p>
<p>It is more acceptable for men to have long hair than for women to have short because the people who are in charge now had long hair back in the 70s &#8212; men and women. Those in power today tend not to come from segments of society in which women have/had short hair.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s about culture, not about scriptural principles.</p>
<p>I do not think that all of scripture should be reinterpreted because culture has changed &#8212; far from it! But there are certain passages in which it is pretty obvious that Paul is writing from his own ideas about practicing Christianity in Roman culture, not giving us God&#8217;s commands. (Yes, I do still believe it is inspired by God. Go figure&#8230;)</p>
<p>Three examples:<br />
The passage in questsion: Does not nature teach you&#8230;<br />
The aforementioned passage in 1 Timothy: I do not allow a woman&#8230;<br />
1 Corinthians 11:6: we have no other practice&#8230;</p>
<p>These seem to stand in stark contrast to his theology of equality in Galatians 3:28. I can see Paul on the one hand knowing what is true in Christ and on the other knowing that getting people into God&#8217;s family is way more important than a cultural revolution of equality, so he didn&#8217;t try to change culture any more than he had to.</p>
<p>I think that today we are fortunate to live in a culture that is closer in this respect at least to the ideal that Paul lays out in Galatians.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the way I see it. My apologies for my longwindedness.</p>
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		<title>By: ana shaw:)</title>
		<link>http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/07/21/why-do-we-do-things-the-way-we-do/comment-page-1/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>ana shaw:)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/07/21/why-do-we-do-things-the-way-we-do/#comment-246</guid>
		<description>chalk it up to "conveinent legalisim."  

don't get me wrong, the Bible is pretty clear on defining most right's and wrongs and we should absolutely obey God.  i think often times we as a society try to rationalize the gray areas.  a lot of the time i think we can go overboard!  IE: some churches require that women wear skirts.  if that is preference... more power to ya, but to say it is a sin to wear pants?  conveinent legalism.  sometimes i think we make this stuff up to make ourselves look puffed up and pretty.  it's sin, it's annoying, it's a fact of life on earth.  their will always be zaney views out there because human logic is just that... human.  it is flawed.  thankfully our God is the God of reason and truth whom we can cry out to for discernment when we are confused!  how's that for clear as mud?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>chalk it up to &#8220;conveinent legalisim.&#8221;  </p>
<p>don&#8217;t get me wrong, the Bible is pretty clear on defining most right&#8217;s and wrongs and we should absolutely obey God.  i think often times we as a society try to rationalize the gray areas.  a lot of the time i think we can go overboard!  IE: some churches require that women wear skirts.  if that is preference&#8230; more power to ya, but to say it is a sin to wear pants?  conveinent legalism.  sometimes i think we make this stuff up to make ourselves look puffed up and pretty.  it&#8217;s sin, it&#8217;s annoying, it&#8217;s a fact of life on earth.  their will always be zaney views out there because human logic is just that&#8230; human.  it is flawed.  thankfully our God is the God of reason and truth whom we can cry out to for discernment when we are confused!  how&#8217;s that for clear as mud?</p>
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