Comments on: AWANA, the GCSSA, and your wife http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/ Straight Talk for Serious Children's Ministers Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:48:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Pastor Dan Gruber http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2256 Pastor Dan Gruber Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:13:47 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2256 It is sad that ministries are getting away from Sunday school. Some of the problem is staffing a decent Sunday school program. The scriptures teach that we are to teach “And the things that you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.” 2 Timothy 2:2. The Sunday school concept is probably the closest thing Gentile Christianity has that follows the Rabbinical pattern of teaching the young boys so by the time they are ready for their Barmitzvah (sic?) they know more Word than most preachers today. (At least the Old Testament) God is the One who commands us to memorize and study his Word. As a Sunday school teacher and a minister for many years I see Sunday school as a must if our children are going to continue in the faith when they are older. I would not have grown in any depth in my faith to survive the storms had I not been involved in Sunday school as a college student after my conversion. I see a disturbing pattern in evangelical Christianity in the way we brush the canvas across scriptures in Children’s Church without the solid foundation of Sunday school. This is like trying to walk on one leg. You need both. This is similar to my Catholic upbringing where we learned only key scriptures to reinforce our particular beliefs but did not dig deep into the scripture. Are Protestants falling into the same traps and snares that our Catholic brothers fell into? They recognized this failing during Vatican II so there has been an attempt in Catholicism to allow and encourage personal Bible reading and study. With much concern, Pastor Dan Gruber Omaha, NE (Yes I am Pastor Dick Gruber's brother) It is sad that ministries are getting away from Sunday school. Some of the problem is staffing a decent Sunday school program. The scriptures teach that we are to teach “And the things that you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.” 2 Timothy 2:2. The Sunday school concept is probably the closest thing Gentile Christianity has that follows the Rabbinical pattern of teaching the young boys so by the time they are ready for their Barmitzvah (sic?) they know more Word than most preachers today. (At least the Old Testament) God is the One who commands us to memorize and study his Word. As a Sunday school teacher and a minister for many years I see Sunday school as a must if our children are going to continue in the faith when they are older.

I would not have grown in any depth in my faith to survive the storms had I not been involved in Sunday school as a college student after my conversion. I see a disturbing pattern in evangelical Christianity in the way we brush the canvas across scriptures in Children’s Church without the solid foundation of Sunday school. This is like trying to walk on one leg. You need both. This is similar to my Catholic upbringing where we learned only key scriptures to reinforce our particular beliefs but did not dig deep into the scripture. Are Protestants falling into the same traps and snares that our Catholic brothers fell into? They recognized this failing during Vatican II so there has been an attempt in Catholicism to allow and encourage personal Bible reading and study.

With much concern,

Pastor Dan Gruber
Omaha, NE
(Yes I am Pastor Dick Gruber’s brother)

]]> By: Evan Doyle http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2174 Evan Doyle Thu, 06 Dec 2007 05:13:02 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2174 So what, this is how you treat me because I haven't worked in the office? First I find out that you went to AWANA through the blog, and now that you're going to Orange? Louie Giglio and Francis Chan are going to be at Orange. If you only knew how much I disliked you right now... We need to work on this whole communication thing. I think I'm tired and ranting, so I'm going to be quiet now. ;) So what, this is how you treat me because I haven’t worked in the office? First I find out that you went to AWANA through the blog, and now that you’re going to Orange? Louie Giglio and Francis Chan are going to be at Orange. If you only knew how much I disliked you right now…

We need to work on this whole communication thing. I think I’m tired and ranting, so I’m going to be quiet now. ;)

]]> By: Carmen http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2172 Carmen Thu, 06 Dec 2007 04:08:37 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2172 By the way, just saw your last statement that you will be at Orange. I will too!! Maybe we'll bump into each other :) I'm checking out the preschool stuff. By the way, just saw your last statement that you will be at Orange. I will too!! Maybe we’ll bump into each other :) I’m checking out the preschool stuff.

]]> By: Pastor Dean http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2162 Pastor Dean Wed, 05 Dec 2007 21:19:04 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2162 I have actually been to the GCSSA back in 2003, right before getting my first children's ministry position in Colorado. It was actually my first experience at any sort of convention; and I went becasue the Children's Pastor was on their board at the time. Couple of thoughts: 1. The GCSSA servs more than just Children's Ministry - it also includes ministry to adults of all ages and situations. Unfortantely, "Sunday School" has virtually gone by the wayside in most church for adults as well - Choosing to focus on Adult Bible Fellowships and Small Groups. While these may be seen as minor changes (assuming they still meet on Sunday AM's, and many do not), they are a radical shift in process and paradigm. 2. They certainly do not promote themselves very much, which gives the appearence that they are happy with the status quo. It simply does not cut it anymore. There is also a similar association in Detroit, with an annual convention, and it is simply not attended. On the family ministry issue - it should indeed be THE focus of the church, including CM. But Family Ministry is more than connecting kids and their families together. It includes the age-seperated programming, special events, family worship services (if possible), parenting and marriage seminars, intentional equipping times for parents, and so on. It should not simply be another ministry or program, but the very core of what the church should be about. Dean I have actually been to the GCSSA back in 2003, right before getting my first children’s ministry position in Colorado. It was actually my first experience at any sort of convention; and I went becasue the Children’s Pastor was on their board at the time. Couple of thoughts:

1. The GCSSA servs more than just Children’s Ministry - it also includes ministry to adults of all ages and situations. Unfortantely, “Sunday School” has virtually gone by the wayside in most church for adults as well - Choosing to focus on Adult Bible Fellowships and Small Groups. While these may be seen as minor changes (assuming they still meet on Sunday AM’s, and many do not), they are a radical shift in process and paradigm.

2. They certainly do not promote themselves very much, which gives the appearence that they are happy with the status quo. It simply does not cut it anymore. There is also a similar association in Detroit, with an annual convention, and it is simply not attended.

On the family ministry issue - it should indeed be THE focus of the church, including CM. But Family Ministry is more than connecting kids and their families together. It includes the age-seperated programming, special events, family worship services (if possible), parenting and marriage seminars, intentional equipping times for parents, and so on. It should not simply be another ministry or program, but the very core of what the church should be about.

Dean

]]> By: Carmen http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2161 Carmen Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:24:23 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2161 I agree with you, Ryan that Family ministry must be woven throughout all ministry in the church. I also am a big promoter of Children's church and Sunday school if it is done properly. It seems that many times our Sunday School teachers are not well trained and SS becomes very ho-hum and dry, resulting in not really reaching the kids we want to reach. One thing our church is experimenting with right now is this: During Sunday school hour, we have a family worship hour. The kids and parents go to their own worship together that is really on the kids level. Then families have "homework" to do together throughout the week. During church hour, parents go to adult worship and kids go to Children's church (45 min.) and small group "sunday school" type time for (30 min). Who knows what kind of impact this will make. Time will tell. We are all still in the wait and see phase, but know that families have to be strengthened and lately that seems to be declining. Thanks for sharing more in depth!!! I agree with you, Ryan that Family ministry must be woven throughout all ministry in the church. I also am a big promoter of Children’s church and Sunday school if it is done properly. It seems that many times our Sunday School teachers are not well trained and SS becomes very ho-hum and dry, resulting in not really reaching the kids we want to reach. One thing our church is experimenting with right now is this: During Sunday school hour, we have a family worship hour. The kids and parents go to their own worship together that is really on the kids level. Then families have “homework” to do together throughout the week. During church hour, parents go to adult worship and kids go to Children’s church (45 min.) and small group “sunday school” type time for (30 min). Who knows what kind of impact this will make. Time will tell. We are all still in the wait and see phase, but know that families have to be strengthened and lately that seems to be declining. Thanks for sharing more in depth!!!

]]> By: skinner http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2160 skinner Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:08:07 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2160 Kick this around....the same trend will happen with VBS. However I dont know what will take its place...if anything. Kick this around….the same trend will happen with VBS.
However I dont know what will take its place…if anything.

]]> By: Ryan Frank http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2155 Ryan Frank Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:41:21 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2155 Tom Shultz at Group once said, "If you aren't doing family ministry, you aren't doing youth ministry." This was back in the 70's before family ministry was the buzz word. The same is true for children's ministry. We have to help parents do their job. The problem with most parents (as you suggested Carmen) is that they drop their kids off at the door and expect you to get the job done for them. When their kid turns 18 and jets out the door of the church they blame the youth pastor. Yes, I believe in the Sunday School. I also believe in children's church. I don't think the best solution is to pull kids out of children's ministry and throw them in with their parents. If you want to do that - that's fine. But that does not define family ministry. It's much bigger than that. That would be like me asking you if you want a pop, and going to get you a Coca-Cola because that's what pop is. Pop can be a ton of different beverages. Family ministry must be weaved throughout every ministry in the church. The youth ministry, the children's ministry, the preaching ministry, etc. must each ask themselves what they are doing to help mom and dad raise spiritual champions. That's the way I see it. Tom Shultz at Group once said, “If you aren’t doing family ministry, you aren’t doing youth ministry.” This was back in the 70’s before family ministry was the buzz word. The same is true for children’s ministry.

We have to help parents do their job. The problem with most parents (as you suggested Carmen) is that they drop their kids off at the door and expect you to get the job done for them. When their kid turns 18 and jets out the door of the church they blame the youth pastor.

Yes, I believe in the Sunday School. I also believe in children’s church. I don’t think the best solution is to pull kids out of children’s ministry and throw them in with their parents. If you want to do that - that’s fine. But that does not define family ministry. It’s much bigger than that. That would be like me asking you if you want a pop, and going to get you a Coca-Cola because that’s what pop is. Pop can be a ton of different beverages.

Family ministry must be weaved throughout every ministry in the church. The youth ministry, the children’s ministry, the preaching ministry, etc. must each ask themselves what they are doing to help mom and dad raise spiritual champions. That’s the way I see it.

]]> By: Carmen http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2151 Carmen Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:22:35 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2007/12/05/awana-the-gcssa-and-your-wife/#comment-2151 So, are you saying that family ministry is not necessary? Or that Sunday School is more important? Just wondering your thoughts on Family ministry. I see advantages and disadvantages. One advantage: why do we always want to pull families apart once they enter the church? Disadvantage: maybe not as much depth can be taught to adults if they are in family worship. Possible advantage: Maybe if parents start parenting, and teaching kids the Bible, as is their responsibility, we would see more mature Christians down the line. Hmmmm.... So, are you saying that family ministry is not necessary? Or that Sunday School is more important? Just wondering your thoughts on Family ministry. I see advantages and disadvantages. One advantage: why do we always want to pull families apart once they enter the church? Disadvantage: maybe not as much depth can be taught to adults if they are in family worship. Possible advantage: Maybe if parents start parenting, and teaching kids the Bible, as is their responsibility, we would see more mature Christians down the line. Hmmmm….

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