Comments on: What if the church ran out of money? http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/ Straight Talk for Serious Children's Ministers Thu, 04 Jun 2009 03:00:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Carolyn http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-9403 Carolyn Wed, 10 Dec 2008 06:06:40 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-9403 I am fortunate to have a full-time paid position as children's pastor at our church. I've been doing this for four years and feel is it God's calling on my life. Until a year ago, I was financially in the position to minister without being concerned about how much I was getting paid, but my husband has been without a fulltime job since last January so now I don't have that flexibility. If the church could no longer pay me, I'd have to find another job. I am fortunate to have a full-time paid position as children’s pastor at our church. I’ve been doing this for four years and feel is it God’s calling on my life. Until a year ago, I was financially in the position to minister without being concerned about how much I was getting paid, but my husband has been without a fulltime job since last January so now I don’t have that flexibility. If the church could no longer pay me, I’d have to find another job.

]]> By: Sal http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-9239 Sal Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:16:16 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-9239 My father was a church elder and evangelist/church planter. He was never on a church payroll. In fact he gave almost all of his teacher's salary to support some of the "infant" churches in the rural areas, sometimes to the detriment of supporting his own family. (I know my mom resented being the sole-breadwinner until someone told her that God had placed them in partnership so that she could contribute to my father's ministry.) My spouse and I are now in Seminary, equipping ourselves for full-time ministry. Our home church is supportive but we are not receiving any financial support from them. We are living off our savings (which came from Him actually because He enabled the work of our hands to prosper during our years of "secular" employment.) We are humbled by the fact we are serving a God of the universe. (Doesn't He own the cattle on a thousand hill?) Frankly, I am apprehensive about being on a church payroll. Couple of times, I have seen volunteers doing more work than paid pastors and ministry workers. I personally want to emulate George Mueller to practice what we teach...about trusting God to provide for us in His way n in His time. (Indeed He has provided for us, miraculously, many times.) But on the other hand, a church too has to practice faith by giving to support her workers, right? Both OT n NT teaches about providing for God's workers n their families. In truth, I am torn between my personal convictions and reality. My father was a church elder and evangelist/church planter. He was never on a church payroll. In fact he gave almost all of his teacher’s salary to support some of the “infant” churches in the rural areas, sometimes to the detriment of supporting his own family. (I know my mom resented being the sole-breadwinner until someone told her that God had placed them in partnership so that she could contribute to my father’s ministry.)
My spouse and I are now in Seminary, equipping ourselves for full-time ministry. Our home church is supportive but we are not receiving any financial support from them. We are living off our savings (which came from Him actually because He enabled the work of our hands to prosper during our years of “secular” employment.) We are humbled by the fact we are serving a God of the universe. (Doesn’t He own the cattle on a thousand hill?)
Frankly, I am apprehensive about being on a church payroll. Couple of times, I have seen volunteers doing more work than paid pastors and ministry workers. I personally want to emulate George Mueller to practice what we teach…about trusting God to provide for us in His way n in His time. (Indeed He has provided for us, miraculously, many times.) But on the other hand, a church too has to practice faith by giving to support her workers, right? Both OT n NT teaches about providing for God’s workers n their families.
In truth, I am torn between my personal convictions and reality.

]]> By: Sista http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-9046 Sista Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:12:20 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-9046 Question: Our church had a Praise Jam for young adults. One of the visiting bands spent over 10 hours assisting our event. They loaned their equipment and equipment our church would not even loan to the event. They hussled to get this equipment from their own church. When asked to stay to the end of service to usher in Altar Call - they did. They are college students who are commited to being used to strengthen God's Kingdom. Well I suggested that our ministry invite them to dine with us at our church or even have us deliver it to them on campus. Whatever worked better for them! It was not supported at our meeting...comments of them blessing the Kingdom and shouldn't expect anything and we shouldn't feel obligated to do anything was the position. I expressed my concern that we recognize their worth by this small token and even volunteered to do it at my home. That idea was attacked. College students are struggling...can't often eat a home cooked and well balanced meal...don't work, etc.. We have had a few events and have never blessed the performers with any love offering. The excellence and commitment from this band was such a blessing to our success. Was I Wrong and should I have left it alone. Question: Our church had a Praise Jam for young adults. One of the visiting bands spent over 10 hours assisting our event. They loaned their equipment and equipment our church would not even loan to the event. They hussled to get this equipment from their own church. When asked to stay to the end of service to usher in Altar Call – they did. They are college students who are commited to being used to strengthen God’s Kingdom. Well I suggested that our ministry invite them to dine with us at our church or even have us deliver it to them on campus. Whatever worked better for them! It was not supported at our meeting…comments of them blessing the Kingdom and shouldn’t expect anything and we shouldn’t feel obligated to do anything was the position. I expressed my concern that we recognize their worth by this small token and even volunteered to do it at my home. That idea was attacked. College students are struggling…can’t often eat a home cooked and well balanced meal…don’t work, etc.. We have had a few events and have never blessed the performers with any love offering. The excellence and commitment from this band was such a blessing to our success. Was I Wrong and should I have left it alone.

]]> By: Liz http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-8577 Liz Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:42:34 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-8577 I absolutely never ever leave feedback on a blog but I couldn't resist after reading some of the responses above. Being a pastors daughter gives me a unique perspective on this topic. I do feel that the church is supporting "missional" activities when they hire staff. How else is the church going to move forward and reach the world without leaders who can give their entire energy and focus to this calling. If there was no such thing as paid staff no one would be able to give 100% to the mission of the church. As to the comment "volunteers give more than paid staff because they do it as ministry, not a job". Paid staff are definitely doing their job as a ministry. Most paid staff that I know have several college degrees and could go out into the secular work force and make double or triple their current salary. Being a childrens' pastor is not a job, it is a life calling and a sacrifice for those who do it. Even though I think paid staff members are very important, they could not do their job without volunteers. Volunteering is one of the greatest things that we can do for the Lord. Even paid staff members should volunteer for things that they are not necessarily getting paid for. When paid staff and volunteers work hand-in-hand great things happen! I absolutely never ever leave feedback on a blog but I couldn’t resist after reading some of the responses above. Being a pastors daughter gives me a unique perspective on this topic.

I do feel that the church is supporting “missional” activities when they hire staff. How else is the church going to move forward and reach the world without leaders who can give their entire energy and focus to this calling. If there was no such thing as paid staff no one would be able to give 100% to the mission of the church.

As to the comment “volunteers give more than paid staff because they do it as ministry, not a job”. Paid staff are definitely doing their job as a ministry. Most paid staff that I know have several college degrees and could go out into the secular work force and make double or triple their current salary. Being a childrens’ pastor is not a job, it is a life calling and a sacrifice for those who do it.

Even though I think paid staff members are very important, they could not do their job without volunteers. Volunteering is one of the greatest things that we can do for the Lord. Even paid staff members should volunteer for things that they are not necessarily getting paid for. When paid staff and volunteers work hand-in-hand great things happen!

]]> By: Scott Austin http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-8565 Scott Austin Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:08:18 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-8565 This has been very helpful. I am the next+gen pastor of a big church and have been questioning how much money we spend on staff. I believe a workmen is worthy of his hire but am also all to aware of the economy and the impact it's having on our ability to expand. At some point a shift happens in big churches where you stop looking for great volunteers to run significant parts of the church and begin looking for paid staff. At first it seems awesome, having money to spend. Over time it changes a church, it's changed mine. This has been very helpful. I am the next+gen pastor of a big church and have been questioning how much money we spend on staff. I believe a workmen is worthy of his hire but am also all to aware of the economy and the impact it’s having on our ability to expand. At some point a shift happens in big churches where you stop looking for great volunteers to run significant parts of the church and begin looking for paid staff. At first it seems awesome, having money to spend. Over time it changes a church, it’s changed mine.

]]> By: Glen Woods http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-8552 Glen Woods Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:39:09 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-8552 Howdy, I have been a longtime volunteer at my church. Currently my church helps me out a little with a monthly stipend for which I am grateful. If it went away, that would not cause me to stop doing what I am doing. I have a full-time job which meets my needs with or without the stipend. So, I am inspired by the many awesome volunteer leaders out there and I agree that it is a privilege to lead and minister as a volunteer. However, if this was my full-time vocational job and the church told me they could not, or would not pay me anymore after a certain point, then obviously I would have to make a decision about what to do. If they could not pay me, but were willing to help me transition to a marketplace job and accomodate the decreased amount of focus that I would be putting into the church ministry, then it might work. I would be happy to consider options if I felt the Lord was requiring me to stay. But, if they simply decided to stop paying me, it would raise the question of why. It seems to me that it would be capricious for a church to refuse without cause to pay an employee for continued work. So, if it was something like that, then I would take that to mean I am fired and that I am free to look for work and ministry elsewhere. Or, if they said they did not want to pay me anymore, but want me to continue my level of ministry performance, I would politely inform them that they are being unrealistic. Case in point: I would ask them if they would be willing to do the same in their marketplace jobs. Of course, the answer would be no. If a church refuses to pay, then I have to find revenue streams somewhere, typically in the marketplace. Besides, who wants to work for a church which treats its employees so poorly? What kind of witness is that to the community? I have developed a high level of respect for my colleagues who do full-time vocational ministry. They have so much pressure from so many angles. There is a balance between handling vocational ministry as a business and as a ministry calling. On one hand we have to deal with financial realities. On the other we want to do what God requires of us. I think it boils down to churches developing strong human resources capacity to help provide support for employees. It also means that children's ministry leaders need to shore up their understanding of what it means to be a professional in a very competitive and uncertain ministry marketplace. Howdy,

I have been a longtime volunteer at my church. Currently my church helps me out a little with a monthly stipend for which I am grateful. If it went away, that would not cause me to stop doing what I am doing. I have a full-time job which meets my needs with or without the stipend. So, I am inspired by the many awesome volunteer leaders out there and I agree that it is a privilege to lead and minister as a volunteer.

However, if this was my full-time vocational job and the church told me they could not, or would not pay me anymore after a certain point, then obviously I would have to make a decision about what to do.

If they could not pay me, but were willing to help me transition to a marketplace job and accomodate the decreased amount of focus that I would be putting into the church ministry, then it might work. I would be happy to consider options if I felt the Lord was requiring me to stay.

But, if they simply decided to stop paying me, it would raise the question of why. It seems to me that it would be capricious for a church to refuse without cause to pay an employee for continued work. So, if it was something like that, then I would take that to mean I am fired and that I am free to look for work and ministry elsewhere.

Or, if they said they did not want to pay me anymore, but want me to continue my level of ministry performance, I would politely inform them that they are being unrealistic. Case in point: I would ask them if they would be willing to do the same in their marketplace jobs. Of course, the answer would be no. If a church refuses to pay, then I have to find revenue streams somewhere, typically in the marketplace. Besides, who wants to work for a church which treats its employees so poorly? What kind of witness is that to the community?

I have developed a high level of respect for my colleagues who do full-time vocational ministry. They have so much pressure from so many angles. There is a balance between handling vocational ministry as a business and as a ministry calling. On one hand we have to deal with financial realities. On the other we want to do what God requires of us.

I think it boils down to churches developing strong human resources capacity to help provide support for employees. It also means that children’s ministry leaders need to shore up their understanding of what it means to be a professional in a very competitive and uncertain ministry marketplace.

]]> By: Denise http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-8550 Denise Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:23:55 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-8550 Hi Carmen, You know...you're probably right. I don't think I'd want to get paid either...I don't have any more to give and I wouldn't want to disappoint...:-) Hi Carmen,

You know…you’re probably right. I don’t think I’d want to get paid either…I don’t have any more to give and I wouldn’t want to disappoint…:-)

]]> By: Carmen http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-8548 Carmen Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:34:08 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-8548 I don't get paid either!! I spend many hours volunteering! There has been talk by some that I should be hired staff. I told my husband the other day I think they would be disappointed if they hired me because I'm not sure I could give any more than I already do and I think they'd think if they were paying me, I should!!! I often think volunteers give more than paid staff because they do it as ministry, not a job :) I don’t get paid either!! I spend many hours volunteering! There has been talk by some that I should be hired staff. I told my husband the other day I think they would be disappointed if they hired me because I’m not sure I could give any more than I already do and I think they’d think if they were paying me, I should!!! I often think volunteers give more than paid staff because they do it as ministry, not a job :)

]]> By: Ryan Frank http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-8544 Ryan Frank Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:05:35 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-8544 Thanks for all the feedback guys! Some of the best children's pastors I know never collect a paycheck from the church. They faithfully shepherd kids week after week. Denise, I love what you have to say about retiring in the Lord's work! I never plan to retire on the Lord - my ministries might change - but retire will I not! RYAN Thanks for all the feedback guys! Some of the best children’s pastors I know never collect a paycheck from the church. They faithfully shepherd kids week after week.

Denise, I love what you have to say about retiring in the Lord’s work! I never plan to retire on the Lord – my ministries might change – but retire will I not!
RYAN

]]> By: Brenna http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/2008/11/11/what-if-the-church-ran-out-of-money/comment-page-1/#comment-8541 Brenna Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:38:16 +0000 http://www.thewayweseeitblog.com/?p=621#comment-8541 You can be called to a ministry position and not be paid. I work full-time "in the world" for pay and am children's-family minister as a volunteer. I'm called to both positions and working in my paid position actually helps me in the church work; I can see what regular people need and what they're dealing with and help guide ministries appropriately. You can be called to a ministry position and not be paid. I work full-time “in the world” for pay and am children’s-family minister as a volunteer. I’m called to both positions and working in my paid position actually helps me in the church work; I can see what regular people need and what they’re dealing with and help guide ministries appropriately.

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